The death of enthusiast cars

[scharlton]

This is an interesting thread, some comments to the various points;
Tesla - amazing how someone can start a car company, the amount of money involved is mind blowing and I know they are selling 60k cars in China each month. However, Tesla made a loss last year on selling cars (not sure if global or regional), about $200m if I remember correctly but made an overall profit of $400 by selling CO2 offset credits to other car companies. Does this really help the environment?
I would not buy an electric car although one would actually suit my wife's driving profile (frequency and range). Not because I don't like the whole EV thing, it's just the technology is moving on so fast it only makes sense to lease for 3 years then walk away. A UK company called YASA has developed a motor that for half the weight, half the size, can put out twice the power. It's so good Mercedes brought them and I assume will be in the Hybrid C63 that started this thread.
Finally, a cleverer person than me (top BMW eng actually) said an electric car only makes sense if all the energy needed to gather the materials and produce the car, plus the energy consumed during the life of the car and the energy required to recycle the end of life car comes from renewable energy! I think we are far from that currently and while a modern diesel or petrol does burn fossil fuels, in total lifetime vs an EV, it's pretty even for CO2 output currently.

[stefan9107]

This is an interesting thread, some comments to the various points;
Tesla - amazing how someone can start a car company, the amount of money involved is mind blowing and I know they are selling 60k cars in China each month. However, Tesla made a loss last year on selling cars (not sure if global or regional), about $200m if I remember correctly but made an overall profit of $400 by selling CO2 offset credits to other car companies. Does this really help the environment?
I would not buy an electric car although one would actually suit my wife's driving profile (frequency and range). Not because I don't like the whole EV thing, it's just the technology is moving on so fast it only makes sense to lease for 3 years then walk away. A UK company called YASA has developed a motor that for half the weight, half the size, can put out twice the power. It's so good Mercedes brought them and I assume will be in the Hybrid C63 that started this thread.
Finally, a cleverer person than me (top BMW eng actually) said an electric car only makes sense if all the energy needed to gather the materials and produce the car, plus the energy consumed during the life of the car and the energy required to recycle the end of life car comes from renewable energy! I think we are far from that currently and while a modern diesel or petrol does burn fossil fuels, in total lifetime vs an EV, it's pretty even for CO2 output currently.

There is a lot of mixed information out there with regards to the offset of materials used in an EV vs the energy to gather and manufacture etc. A lot of it is very hyperbolic. It varies a lot depending on where you live and what car it is and where it was built etc - even how you drive and where. There is also a lot of argument within the industry and amongst academics about the REAL emissions/environmental impact of extraction, manufacture and transportation as it's not exactly simple to calculate. Especially when you start getting down to the real nitty gritty stuff like... well all these employee's... how did they get to work? What did they eat for lunch? How many times did they wash their hands and flush the toilet etc etc. I do however remember seeing one study on a Tesla Model 3 where it was about what is better, buying a new EV, a more economical ICE car, or keeping a less efficient old car that already been manufactured. I forget the exact outcome but I believe the EV did eventually come out on top. I think it beat out the new ICE car after like 3 years of average mileage and then the existing car after 6 or something like that. I believe they did pick a specific place and therefore could calculate the energy mix used to charge the car as well. It'll obviously be worse if you live somewhere where all the electricity is from a coal power plant etc.

I do however agree about not buying an EV because of the shifting tech. If you buy one now you risk being obsolete in only a few years. Yes your car will still work and do the job it was intended for, but its resale value will be f all when the new one comes along with double the range. Although I suspect much like with incremental power and economy gains, car companies will drip feed it to get as much £££ as they can out of everyone. Lease all the way when it comes to EV.


A couple of other interesting bits in the news and just for anecdotal conversations:

I believe Toyota came out just yesterday and said they've had some form of breakthrough that will help them make solid state batteries that will have a range of 700+ miles and "could" be charged in 10-15 minutes.

Interestingly there was also an article on Autoexpress yesterday about the slow EV uptake from private buyers (part of the reason VW have scaled back EV production). They said that in June 20% of new EV's went to private buyers and the other 80% were fleet and business.

And finally, I was at a nearby councils bin lorry depot yesterday (they shall remain nameless), and I was chatting to one of the mechanics there. He showed me their new all electric bin lorry which he said impressively did do a full days work (which in fairness isn't actually that many miles). The batteries on it were FOOKING MASSIVE, but it was locked up inside and not in use. Apparently they've been through 2 or 3 different charging stations and cable sizes as none of them are man enough for it so they can't charge it. They also had a 2nd one that kept taking out the buildings supply everytime they plugged it in, so that has been sent back and hasn't returned for months. They have no one who can actually work on it and no one local who can come in to work on it so they have to wait for a specialist of which there aren't very many in the country. So when something does go wrong, its out of use for weeks if not months. He then said that if they want a 3rd one, they have to build a new substation and there would be time allowance limits on when they could charge it so as to not draw too much from the rather large local towns supply. It sounds like a VERY costly venture and not one that's paying off financially or environmentally for a while. On the plus side it isn't my council so it's not coming out of my taxes... unlike @MickJaguar... oops.. gave away which council it was...

[scm]

... while a modern diesel or petrol does burn fossil fuels, in total lifetime vs an EV, it's pretty even for CO2 output currently.

I salve my conscience by believing that running a car that's already been built (6 years ago) is greener than having an EV built.

[santoshlv426]

EV's and Hybrids bring with the their own set of maladies, which we'll experience in 10 years, as opposed to the vagaries of the ICE which took + 100 years (from 1893) to become aware of, and ICE's are still going strong.

Society has yet to experience the disposal costs of batteries and the moribund effect on the used market where one will be buying EV's with 20-30% of battery life.
I foresee the current EV future values in jeopardy unless battery retrofitting becomes a reality. Already battery manufacturers are seeking ways to move away from current battery technology to a non-metal version which will make existing batteries obsolete by the time these cars are in the 2nd phase of their lives.

[scm]

Not forgetting the massive cost of implementng the necessary infrastructure improvements to support charging all those vehicles .....

[SilverDreamMachine]

At the moment you choose a Jag F-Type over a 911 "cus V8" (okay not the only reason but you get the idea).

In the UK the main reason to choose a Jag over a Porsche is to be let out of junctions, and to be treated like a human being!

The main reason is because a decent specification 992 or even a 911.2 is stupidly expensive and relatively you get much less car for your money!!

[Lunar]

Well said BlueDreamMachine

I would love a Spyder, but it would have to be an auto for today’s traffic and I’m not prepared to drop a 3 figure sum on a car.
Quite happy for the grins I still get 6 years on from spending 1/3 of that.

[Lunar]

So yes, let's keep enjoying the wonder of the F-Type for as long as we can!

We're the lucky one's... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-49305126

[scm]

So yes, let's keep enjoying the wonder of the F-Type for as long as we can!

We're the lucky one's... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-49305126

A man of good taste, clearly - best place for a Beemer ...

[Lunar]

Not forgetting the massive cost of implementng the necessary infrastructure improvements to support charging all those vehicles .....

The fact that the National Grid isn’t capable of supporting the size of charging stations needed for the electric car folly was highlighted in a programme on tv last night.

One major near-future problem amongst a bunch of other issues.

And then we get this happening, not for the first time…

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-66310280